Solving the Fragmentation in Hospitality Technology

During the webinar, we delved into the state of PropTech, exploring recent changes and emerging trends and how they affect hospitality operators. Our speakers discussed how companies deal with the fragmentation and complexity of all the different technologies. They shared tips on how hospitality professionals can leverage technology to deliver a seamless experience for guests, employees and partners, while improving overall efficiency. In addition, the session touched on the long-term outlook for the hospitality tech sector and ways to prepare for the future.

As the hospitality industry continues to attract new tech companies, operators are overwhelmed with options to choose from. On the flip side, with increased mergers and acquisitions in the market, consolidation seems to be the way forward. With this changing technology landscape, it’s important to consider how to select the right tech stack for your business. So, what’s next? How can operators navigate this complex ecosystem to make informed decisions about their technology choices?

Original source: watch on YouTube

Transcript

0:00
I believe we are all in good to go and we’ve got a few more people joining
0:06
in on the audience I’m just gonna hold it off just for a few more minutes um while we get started so the purpose
0:13
of the conversation today during the session we’re going to talk about the state of prop Tech uh recent changes and
0:19
Trends and how all this impacts operators how companies deal with the fragmentation and complexity of all the
0:26
different technology systems and how you can implement this in your business um how to leverage technology to deliver
0:32
a seamless experience for guests employees your partners uh with better and greater efficiency and finally what
0:39
to expect from the hospitality Tech sector in the in the long term so how to
0:45
prepare for what is coming in the space so very briefly just uh why are we talking about the hospitality Tech
0:51
fragmentation uh there’s more and more tech companies coming into this space uh and creating overwhelming operators if
0:58
you will with choice there’s more mergers and Acquisitions happening as well on one hand driving the industry
1:04
towards a certain amount of consolidation so what’s next what is happening for your business what is happening for the technology landscape
1:10
and how do you navigate picking the right Tech stack um just a few housekeeping items before
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we get started the chat on the conversation will be on the right hand side of this platform and you can ask
1:22
questions we will only get to your questions towards the end of this discussion but please feel free to share
1:28
any questions or topics within that chat box so I think we can get started we’ll get
1:34
started with a very brief introduction so myself my name is Francois I’m one of the co-founders and CEO of Enzo connect
1:40
we are a guest experience platform in the hospitality space and our goal is to solve the fragmentation for guest
1:46
experience by connecting a lot of different tools together we’ll move on to Terry if you want to introduce
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yourself you have quite a bit of experience in this space go ahead I’m Terry White I’m coming to you from
1:58
Florida’s Gulf Coast where it’s currently 80 degrees and not a cloud in the sky and I’m thrilled to be here with
2:03
you today amazing you want to tell us a bit more about your background as a property
2:09
manager this is for about 30 years I I was in
2:14
the business just before VRBO Came live and right now started with one property right now we’re at just about 50
2:21
properties right now amazing amazing and now on to you John give us a little
2:26
intro yeah my name is John Ahn um I actually got into the space with a
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business out in Honolulu um it’s called Ohana State it’s a management business
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um and I started out with a simple task of trying to find technology that worked for my small little business
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that took me on changing pms’s more than 15 different times and through that I
2:50
gained a lot of experience with the technology in the space and so everything that I do is kind of
2:57
from my management business what I learned what I see other people struggling with and then finding Solutions around that
3:05
I love it you want to give us a brief little explanation of tech tape as well since that’s uh a big piece of this conversation if you
3:12
will right so Tech tape uh is a separate company that I I founded
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um and what we’re essentially doing is Tech tape is a play on words of duct tape there’s a lot of Technology
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fragmentation in the industry and people have a lot of trouble finding the right technology for them and so what I found
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is if you can find the right technology that fits your business and whether it’s integrated or not find
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a way for it to work for you and that’s what I’ve done for my business and that’s what I do for the clients and
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partners that I work with fantastic so we’re going to start off with a very high level question just on
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for both you Terry and John um on as industry experts whether it’s in the technology side of things for
3:56
Hospitality or just managing uh properties in general how do you guys currently assess the current state of
4:02
hospitality technology how do you find the right tools and what are the different verticals that you see within
4:07
the space maybe you want to get us started Terry um first of all I think do we have
4:14
fragmentation yes is it a problem yes but it’s a very good problem to have I don’t think anybody foreseen in 2020 uh
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post Memorial Day weekend that’s we as an industry would be competing direct ahead on with the hotel industry you
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know and then covid accelerated our accent to the top
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to compete by at least five years and the only reason we were able to do that is because we had so much Great Tech in
4:43
our industry at the time Tech is fully responsible for us being accelerated five years ahead and been then being
4:50
able to take advantage of it um so do we have a problem but we have a very good problem that’s a really good
4:57
how about yourself John what are your thoughts on the assessment of hospitality Hospitality technology
5:03
I have to agree with Terry I mean again the fragmentation is presents some
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challenges but it also provides you with a lot of opportunities
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and a lot of diversity of potential solutions that fits your business and
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the reason why I keep on stressing your business is there’s no such thing as a Str Hospitality school so we’ve all
5:28
built our businesses the way we built our businesses and so there’s no like perfect fit it’s not like Microsoft Word
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where there’s a way that you write and you know you just go and you know get the work done and so having a lot of
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options is very good I’m glad I have Auto host superhog and safely as options
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right um and the goal is for you to really find what works for your business
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and then like Terry said you know take advantage of it to really leverage and
5:59
make your business grow so I don’t think we’re an entire situation I think
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um Francois and I spoke about this before what I see my and Tech tips role
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is actually to defragment the fragmented industry as opposed to trying to
6:16
consolidate or you know solve some dire problem in the industry 100 and if you look just for those who
6:23
are joining in whether it’s live on YouTube on LinkedIn or within the Riverside platform in terms of what
6:29
there is in technology we’re looking at Channel managers Property Management Systems crms guest experience platform
6:35
kyc companies Smart Lock companies housekeeping the housekeeping and maintenance the list keeps growing and I
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think the The Growing Pains of a growing industry is this Innovation and finding
6:48
ways to connect it all together so you can continue to scale your business um so on that note for both of you as
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Hospitality operators how do you deal with this abundance and complexity of tech systems and how do you implement
7:00
this in your business first I guess how do you make the choice is it based on a specific problem you face and then you
7:05
go find a solution for that do you aggregate all the different problems in trying to find the One-Stop shop solution how do you navigate the
7:12
complexity uh to solve your problems with technology maybe we can start with Terry again
7:19
when I chose my PMS several years ago I chose it for one reason and one reason only to do as much as possible inside my
7:27
PMS without ever leaving on a daily basis I very seldom ever leave my PMS I
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do everything I do in there whether it’s quoting I do my coding for the tape chart with my Unified Inbox on my
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financials my pmscrm is in there I other than doing pricing I have to go outside
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for Price labs when I do that but I can honestly say on a daily basis I really don’t go outside my PMS
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for one reason I I designed it that way fair enough now you continue though to
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use different Technologies within that PMS that connect you mentioned price Labs
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um I believe if I’m not you started using DAC as well on the guest experience side of things uh are there other tools that you see being helpful
8:08
like around I don’t know um you know you have a specific CRM for your owner side of things or
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um you use spreadsheets maybe for other pieces of the of the equation
8:21
uh no not at all basically I do everything inside my PMS yes do I have DAC I just started using DAC by the way
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um but you know there’s got to me there’s going to be two big winners in this space going forward we’re never
8:35
gonna we’re never going to eliminate fragmentation but we’re going to make sense of it you know it’s going
8:40
it’s going to work together in a in a cohesive way there’s no and the two big winners are going to be on it’s going to
8:47
be the PMS it’s really the pms’s are morphing into the big three now what we
8:52
have now is we have track we have streamlined with the acquisition
8:57
of light maker people are underestimating what that’s doing there um track mop the floor was streamlined
9:05
for two straight years here um those days are over the acquisition changes everything guesty I think you
9:11
know is is there they have they have the want to be the best in the industry and
9:17
I would say that you very seldom ever see a PMS in Europe using you know PMS in Europe and then the PMS in North
9:23
America it’s either one or the other they very seldom whatever cross but guesty will be the platform that bridges
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that Gap it won’t matter where the properties are in Europe or whether they’re in in North America they’re that strong at PMS that’s where I see the
9:35
future so you’ve got the big three and then you’ve got three or four others um people are underestimating jet stream
9:41
um how good their platform is how deep their platform is and then you’ve got Journey you’ve got um hosts postfully
9:48
and then probably I’m hoping uh directors can be part of that equation then on the other side we’re on the
9:53
other side of the PMS the three biggest Technologies and the three best Technologies in our industry are
9:59
breezeway Enzo and deck and they’re going they’re going to lead us the fragmentation is
10:07
right in front of our face it’s there the answer is there we just don’t see it yet and I’m going to explain a little later how that’s going to happen but
10:13
it’s going to happen for sure and those those six are going to play the key roles in the in the future and one one
10:20
data point I want to bring to attention before we go too deep into this is in
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2018 I predicted what the future of the PMS was going to be and that’s exactly what has happened and then when you look
10:33
at when Expedia sunset at V12
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so V12 was one of the deepest best most respected pms’s on the market so they
10:43
sunsetted it one single PMS one got almost 100 of those clients not 50 not
10:52
60 100 and I’m going to explain to you later how that how Enzo and Dak and
10:59
Breezeway are going to influence that same model and that’s what’s going to happen I’m interested to hear that part I do
11:06
not know so I’m very intrigued to hear how we’re gonna help influence that and how about yourself John because I know
11:11
you’ve got quite a bit of technology that you use even sometimes duplicate pieces that solve parts of uh the
11:18
solution in your Tech taping it all together uh not to play on the words here but um you want to share a bit more how
11:24
you’ve made that decision and what your your thoughts have been around that fragmentation
11:30
yeah um first I I I’d like to just say I
11:35
agree with Terry in terms of the the big players
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um you know there are they are right there are some that are rising to the top um there are even new entries coming in
11:49
still as a PMS which I find you know mind-boggling
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um with that said there are multiple universes parallel
12:00
universes within the short-term rental industry uh there are like the traditional vrma members you know
12:06
multi-generational property management companies uh that were on V12 and you
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know moved on there’s also a huge um huge audience of people who are jumping
12:20
into the the short-term rental world right now and as much as you know the tracks and
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the lmpms of the world um would be would be rising to the top unfortunately a lot of these companies
12:36
are like come back when you grow up and you have 50 properties when you have 100 properties
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um and so because of that I think there’s also going to be kind of the long tail that there are going to be
12:49
winners in the long tail because there’s a fragmentation of The Operators as well
12:56
um to touch on that on that point I guess it depends on the the client types and this is something as a as a tech
13:01
vendor we have to constantly look at right what is our annual contract value of our clients are we signing more three
13:07
listing property managers are we signing more 100 listing property managers uh who do we want to focus on and I think
13:14
it touches back on what John you’d mentioned and I’m sure Terry you can agree with is um every property manager
13:19
is different every business in the vacation rental segment is different every owner is different every guess is different and so being able to solve it
13:26
for everyone is most likely not going to happen at least in in our opinion
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um being able to be very focused on the problems that you solve as a tech company and the audience that you solve
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it for uh is most likely gonna sort of illustrate the key winners for the
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different verticals I mean you know a core hotels uses a very different system than a boutique hotel in Toronto and
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there’s a reason behind that um the boutique hotel doesn’t need such a complex uh System since they might
13:55
have one or two properties versus an accord that has you know hundreds if not thousands of properties
14:01
um so on that note how do you respond to the hospitality Tech
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fragmentation and consolidation Trends we’ve kind of assessed different types of Trends there’s mergers and
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Acquisitions there’s um what’s it called marketplaces where more and more vendors can be integrated
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to your property management system but it seems to be a lot of choice for operators uh or there’s also white
14:24
labels Terry you mentioned um your journey as well as jet stream being one of our clients where we
14:30
actually white label so where do you see that Trend going and who do you think are the clear winners in that space the
14:36
clear winners are going to be the sixth that I just mentioned it’s going to be
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um and the the there’s one reason that one PMS picked up
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all the B12 100 of the B12 there’s one reason only every property manager with more than 40
14:53
properties will will migrate to the strongest technology every single time
14:59
every single time and that’s what happened there and that’s what’s going to happen with Breezeway that’s what’s going to happen with Enzo and that’s
15:05
what’s going to happen with Doc and what John said I totally agree if you have less than 40 properties these these pmas
15:12
they don’t even want you you know they’ve made a known they don’t want you but the problem is the people with 20 or
15:18
met or less properties they make up about 80 percent of all the operators in our space however
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there definition of a tech stack is Airbnb may be verbal in spreadsheets so
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for for that reason I am saying when we talk about consolidation in our industry
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our industry is not ready for you it’s pretty close um but I would say that the
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pms’s are in big big trouble and channel managers are in some kind of trouble and
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the mid-tier to at the bottom of the high tier pms’s
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to me they’re they’re in big trouble and that’s where you’re going to see that’s where you’re going to see the big in
16:01
terms of the strategy oh sorry John uh just uh to double down on on the strategy piece because when I look at a
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property management system they’re fighting two battles at once right they’re fighting the OTA Channel management battle where they
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need to consolidate all those different channels now we’ve already seen this with the acquisition of uh I guess the
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acquiring a channel manager uh potentially pushing out some of their Partners on that front uh as they start
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to internalize all the connections with the OTAs while simultaneously fighting the battle to have all the different
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verticals uh whether it’s guest experience cleaning pricing uh loyalty
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whatever it can be fighting two battles at the same time leads to we either build it we buy it we partner with it
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um and it seems like a lot of these PMS want to build it and are using a Marketplace as a means to to better
16:50
assess what is the next wave of technology so do you think that mergers and acquisitions is the best approach to
16:56
this Innovation do you think that a simple Marketplace integration is the best approach or do you think that the
17:01
actual white label of some of these Partners um would be the best approach to solving the fragmentation within your
17:08
property management system I hope that makes sense I I definitely I definitely do not see it being Marketplace I do not
17:15
see that happening at all yeah what’s what’s never what’s never going to happen in our industry is you’re not
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going to take the single biggest important part of a tech stack which is the PMS you’re not going to morph it into a
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glorified reservation software and integrate it with 30 35 different softwares and have 35
17:34
different logins and dashboards and stuff like that it’s it’s never just look at what
17:41
happened with with B12 if if that if that theory ever had any chance of
17:47
getting any traction it would have been then but you know what you know what happened the exact opposite happened the exact
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opposite happened of marketplace and that’s what’s going to happen with Enzo what’s going to happen with DAC
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it’s going to happen with Breezeway that’s fair John what about your thoughts and all looks oh go ahead I’ll
18:05
explain why it’s going to happen yeah yeah 100 no on the consolidation piece other consolidation piece
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um you see what guesty has done right so guess the last year bought my VR and
18:19
your Porter part you know a big part of it was just a defensive move right
18:24
pick up those clients and whatnot um with myvr they did what most you know
18:30
a lot of consolidation does is you buy it and you kill it so that you know you
18:35
get rid of competition I am somewhat surprised that they are keeping your reporter and using that as an entryway
18:41
drug into you know guesty for pros and I think that’s a very smart move
18:47
um but for the most part consolidation is going to kill the Innovation and the
18:52
you know diversity that we have in the industry um getting to your question I think some
19:00
sort of white labeling is probably the way it’s going to end up and why
19:07
as much as guesty or track might have it you know a lot of resources
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there’s no way that they can devote as much resources into Dynamic pricing as
19:18
wheel house or Price Labs at the same time the same level of resources to
19:23
guest experience as Enzo and Dak have at the same time you know the same amount
19:30
of resources for maintenance as Breezeway does right it’s it’s just not feasible I mean they could
19:36
have a feature that says yes we do maintenance and cleaning and so at a certain point it has to be specialized
19:42
expertise that then talks to everyone now the challenge right now that
19:48
fragmentation is everyone is picking and choosing which PMS do I integrate with
19:54
so that I can get my my ideal customer and so there’s kind of a
20:01
gate where people have to pick and choose and bet on winners and losers in
20:07
terms of the PMs and that that is the fragmentation that’s happening so if you
20:12
can white labeling can help consolidate it or some mechanism of kind of you know
20:18
bringing everything together that’s how that’s how it’ll all kind of work
20:25
together um right so just m a by itself like just in
20:31
other other Industries the barrier to entry is so much higher that
20:36
consolidation works I think in our industry a lot of the barrier to entry whether it’s for the PM
20:42
or even on the tech side I would say is a lot it seems to be a lot lower and
20:47
because of that new entries I believe will keep you know keep coming into the space
20:54
yeah no that’s fair and and I do want to address I know we said we’re gonna hold off on the questions but I do want to
20:59
address a comment there that I’m seeing uh from Philip in terms of the uh stereotype for the under 40 properties
21:04
it is very true that there are a lot of systems that are actually tailored and focused on uh people having less
21:10
properties so you’re not stuck on spreadsheets I mean one example John would be uh hospitable that you use uh
21:15
that is you’re effectively one of your pms’s if you will um that caters to smaller audiences with
21:22
less properties I think it’s just the evolution of clients over time like as you grow your Tech stack becomes more
21:28
complex and your needs change uh when you get started you might not need certain functionalities of a more robust
21:33
uh PMs and as you grow those are going to change now to the common of marketplace versus white label versus uh
21:40
Acquisitions I would say personally I think the Acquisitions game is killing Innovation
21:46
um it’s a money play it’s a it’s a play from private Equity firms it’s a play from Venture Capital firms Whoever has
21:52
the most money can buy these companies Sunset the technology and consolidate uh clients on one system even if it doesn’t
21:59
solve the problems for them because they have no choice um it’s either that or move to a
22:04
completely different system which doesn’t necessarily make sense considering that the overarching system
22:10
that has acquired the other system has made it easy for you to transition uh to
22:15
their core platform but Terry to your comment about the marketplace itself you know thinking that that’s going to be
22:20
dead and I got to be honest with you I think I actually disagree with you on the on the marketplace piece I think it’s an opening for more Innovation but
22:28
I would say it’s all about the integration itself and I think a lot of companies a lot of Partners in our space
22:35
uh cut corners on the integration because they want to consolidate data on their platform and they want to be the
22:41
big fish uh one thing that we do at Enzo is consistently two-way sync all the data does not matter who controls the
22:47
data at the end of the day it’s your data you need this whether it’s in your PMS whether it’s in your guest platform whether it’s in your cleaning tool
22:53
you’re going to need bits and pieces of each of these platforms to speak with each other um so I think while I look at the white
23:00
label approach being the solution to not having many logins I look at the marketplace as being the solution to
23:06
data sharing which effectively solves the fragmentation I do not think that having multiple logins is the real
23:12
fundamental problem I think it’s the fact that systems don’t communicate with each other I mean to manage Enzo connect
23:18
I have God knows how many systems whether it’s our CRM or this tool that we’re using for the webinar uh colds
23:25
call email sequences through another system so um yeah I would say it depends on the
23:32
the value that the marketplace brings but on that point uh what would be the
23:37
result or um impact you think if we continue to go One Direction or the other like what
23:44
happens if we keep seeing mergers and Acquisitions in the hospitality Tech space what happens if we keep seeing more and more Marketplace Integrations
23:50
what are your predictions to the next steps and I know I’m going a bit off the script here but um just based on the direction of the
23:57
conversation Terry you want to get us started on that okay for so I think you misunderstanding
24:02
what I’m saying what I was um saying is you’re never going to get rid of Plug and Play you know you can’t you can’t because
24:08
all the and if you look at the innovation in our industry all the innovation has come from outside the PMS
24:14
the PMS has not innovated it’s come from that it’s come from Breezeway it’s come from Enzo all of that is coming together
24:21
but what’s going to happen is you’re going to have what I’m saying is going to happen is you’re going to have the big bms’s you’re gonna have the big
24:27
three the best communication tools what they are with a two-way set integration
24:32
and it is not going to be the PMS is going to control you know track has the grandest
24:39
road map to the Future who who knows how that is going to turn out in the end but
24:44
definitely I say the big three on the PMS side and the big three on the guest
24:49
communication I think there’s no question our industry is headed towards the guest experience
24:55
everything is going to revolve around the guest experience that’s why that’s why the Dax and the end zones are going
25:01
to play such an important part in our industry and when you put those two together but let’s let’s just break it
25:08
down somewhat so you’ve got Breezeway you’ve got the single biggest I I consider the single best technology in
25:16
our industry that’s not a PMS with their with their operations module but now they’re into the guest communication you
25:22
know text why why are they there because you can’t send a single text message from your PMS to your guests so what do
25:27
they do they introduce texting now they’re entered now they’re competing with DAC and Enzo with the guest
25:33
experience okay so in my opinion they’re going to be the single best and deepest technology in our industry that’s not a
25:39
PMs and okay and then you go over to Doc so you’ve got doc you’ve got the guest
25:44
experience you’ve got the upsells you’ve got the communication you’ve got everything that’s going on and then they’re not even doing that now they’re
25:50
writing codes to remote locks and passing them to the guests and storing them in the book and then you get into
25:57
Enzo you look at Enzo so people I know when they look at it and so they’re going to go oh you got guest
26:02
verification oh you got guest communication you’ve got upsells you’ve
26:07
got everything that you can think of you can dream of here but now not only that in our business you need two pms’s to be
26:15
successful you need a PMS CRM you need a marketing CRM so what do you have now
26:21
there’s Enzo has a has both a PMS CRM and a marketing CRM that that is going
26:29
there’s you want the answer to fragmentation there’s the answer to fragmentation what’s going to happen with a two-way
26:34
integration with the canvas is what’s going to happen and this appreciate it I do want to theory of this theory of you’re going to
26:42
take a mid-level PMs and morph it into a preservation softwares not gonna happen
26:48
fair fair and I do want to put a little disclosure here this is not a self-promoting webinar in any way though although I do appreciate the kind of
26:54
comments Terry um and John do you want to share a bit more I’m just saying I’m just saying that the way I appreciate it I very much
27:01
appreciate it and John what are your thoughts on this uh because this is a this is a Hot Topic I mean constantly what I hear and even when we reach out
27:09
to people to sign them up to Enzo connect the first thing is oh my God here we go with another system that I have to sign up to and what we’ve
27:15
noticed that works really well is when we talk about in our emails and our cold calls what we notice is when we say hey
27:21
we actually work with x y z a b c of the existing systems that you you have and
27:27
it kind of relates with a lot of operators you’re like damn I do use all these tools um John what’s your thoughts on the
27:33
different strategies that tech companies are taking whether it’s again consolidation from M A Marketplace or
27:39
white labels and I’m sure there’s other approaches what is your um thoughts on you know clear winners
27:46
and what the best approach would be foreign I am not as definitive in terms of clear
27:54
winners as uh Terriers I think there there are a lot of different uh variables and paths
28:01
um with that said I think the way I would rank it is I agree that M A is really kind of a you
28:08
know it’s an investment play and I’m not saying that’s a bad thing in and of itself we all want to make money
28:15
um but you also see lots of Industries where private Equity have kind of chewed up the industry you know kind of
28:21
destroyed the soul of the industry and then moved on to the next you know next industry and I feel like that’s what may
28:28
be happening within our industry so I guess m a i don’t believe will be the solution for uh for the fragmentation
28:37
um Marketplace and white labeling I think depending on how those are implemented those are the ways where
28:44
different Technologies are able to speak with each other not you know basically it’s at the end
28:50
of the day it’s not a complex set of data that needs to
28:55
be streamed you know shared between the PMs and the outside tools it’s actually
29:02
a fairly specific amount of data data that needs to be shared in order for the
29:08
functionality to be there and so to be able to be able to create a an ecosystem
29:15
where you know individual companies like and so does not have to decide which
29:21
which PMS is the winner but say hey we have this and here’s you know here are
29:27
the points that we need to sync uh that would be the way so I’m kind of it could
29:34
be the marketplace I think white labeling will be a better could could end up being a better
29:40
end user experience because it’s all kind of packaged and the interface and everything is there
29:47
um but I think it’s one of those two uh you know to uh ways to figure out on the
29:53
consolidation hundred percent and and to a comment that I’m seeing in the in the section and I fully fully agree with uh Richard
30:00
here is third party services such as ourselves are at the mercy of the booking data Silo that is an absolute I
30:07
mean this is a problem that we’re constantly looking to solve especially when we integrate with a property management system that doesn’t have
30:13
certain functionalities doesn’t have web hooks doesn’t enable us to do certain things which starts to restrict the
30:19
functionalities of the third party Services whether it’s your pricing tool whether it’s your cleaning and
30:24
operations tool your guest experience system um and this is a battle that we are all
30:30
fighting it’s whoever is closest to the money whoever is closest to the data at the end of the day has access to doing
30:36
whatever they want to do whether it’s be an all-in-one solution whether it’s share the data across different tools
30:43
um in my opinion I think the marketplace approach does work however it’s the abundance of choice that is creating
30:49
friction I think for operators when you have 10 different guest experience platforms 10 different cleaning and
30:55
operations tools which one do you choose and why and I think it goes back to this idea of understanding what your audience
31:02
is or your guests who are your owners how many properties are you managing and what are you trying to accomplish how
31:08
much are you trying to scale to uh and then how much time I look at an operator one of our clients who scaled from four
31:15
units six months ago to over 150 units uh thereafter obviously when you scale
31:20
that quickly systems start to break your first PMS doesn’t work then suddenly you
31:25
need new tools to start onboarding properties at that rate and what they were able to accomplish was actually
31:32
bringing all of these different Tools around a centralized system that they
31:38
controlled uh air table now I know it doesn’t sound very glorified to integrate everything to an air table
31:44
because it’s basically me saying integrate everything to a spreadsheet but John I know you you’ve done
31:49
something similar here as well um where you’ve gone about and actually Consolidated it you’re yourself with
31:56
your own I don’t even know what we would call it here I mean it’s not a PMS but it’s a centralized
32:02
what would you call it I don’t know tell me more about about that approach and we’ll jump on to you Terry right after with some more questions John what are
32:08
your thoughts on this centralizing that data around airtable or something
32:14
so this is where I would say the data can all be in one place or
32:21
the high level data can all be in one place and you can also have a high level dashboard all in one place without
32:28
having to jump back and forth and again I don’t think the login is the fundamental problem but if you have the
32:33
high level data in one place then when things are going as planned that’s
32:41
all you need and you only need to jump into the specific other you know other technology when things are not going as
32:48
as expected so I would put it very simply that way and I would not underestimate the no
32:55
code low code movement that’s happening right now that is what’s really enabling a lot of
33:01
people like your your your customer Francois two really custom fits the fragmented
33:08
technology into a way that works for their business one other thing I want to just jump in
33:15
on is short-term rental industry within real estate is the one industry where like
33:21
people flock to technology right most of the other like multi-family long-term rentals
33:29
like the fact that you could DocuSign right now is like wow we’re using technology right
33:35
um but because of that a lot of people looked for technology to solve problems that
33:41
technology may not be the right right solution you know having a human being actually taking care of it right and I
33:47
think it’s that like desire to have technology take care of everything is also something that’s happening in our
33:54
industry so the one thing I’ll say is really filter down to what is the
34:00
problem that you have and is technology the right approach for the
34:06
solution I I don’t want to waste time on it but I found myself trying to find a technological solution and then my wife
34:13
just said why don’t you just like leave some additional supplies hidden away so
34:19
the guests can access it if they need it I was like yeah I don’t need to solve it with technology that’s fair sometimes
34:25
the balance of human is is uh undermined by technology in this space because of
34:32
um and it I guess I mean I’m going a bit off script here but do you think it just has to do with vacation rentals being
34:37
potentially less professional uh than hotels or would you disagree with that and Terry maybe you want to share your
34:42
thoughts on on that as to how and why the technology space is evolving so quickly
34:49
there’s just so many great companies and and Hospitality needs an answer to and
34:54
they see an opportunity too like most of these companies like you see which you look at enso you look at that you know
35:00
you’re like a Breezeway they’ve looked at a PMs and they’ve seen something a deficiency and they say and they set out
35:06
to solve it you know so that’s why what’s and and we’re seeing the Innovation because they they failed to
35:12
indicate but as far as the dashboards that you guys were talking about if you were talking about fragmentation so fragmentation is
35:19
but if you talk to any property manager the one single biggest complaint they have
35:24
is having to log into so many different systems to get through a day that’s a single picture and that’s why we’re
35:30
talking about fragmentation that’s what fragmentation is yeah and I I don’t I mean sorry keep
35:37
going keep going yeah to me the big winners are going to be
35:42
it’s the Enzo if you connect the Enzo with the better people with the better
35:48
pms’s you talked about the lack of data the lack of the two-way sync the lack of what’s in inside the API in the API what
35:55
you’re going to find is the better stronger PMS says you’re not going to have the you’re not going to have that problem
36:00
with I already see it with its assistance at the time here I would guess I’m not
36:07
putting words in your mouth but I would guess the challenges that you are facing are with the um lower tiered PMS that’s
36:13
fair um I mean it depends it’s sometimes also the more old school pms’s you don’t necessarily have uh you know the most
36:20
modern apis or send data in certain formats that are a bit more old school that you would expect and when I say old
36:26
school I mean pre-2015 so not that that’s a school exactly why that is why
36:31
I saying people are underestimating streamlines acquisition of light maker light maker probably there’s probably no
36:37
PMS that innovated more in the last four years than light maker and then I would
36:43
say streamlines I say streamline’s biggest challenge was is aging
36:48
technology they’ve solved and my people on the inside at streamlab told me they don’t acquisition was technology they
36:56
bought them for technology um so so what I’m what I’m saying is people are underestimating what is
37:03
happening there you know you look at tracks roadmap to the Future it’s what what is it it’s clearly clearly there’s
37:09
a message there they want to be the only ones the closest thing to the all-in-one solution in the industry and then now you look at
37:16
streamline they’re they’re gonna now it’s game on I said it before track them up the floor was streamlined for two
37:22
straight years that that is over but now what’s game on is a serious business and I say if we don’t hear some major
37:28
Thunder from guesty before the end of the year not because of the acquisition of light maker not because the tracks
37:34
future to the road map just because they’re Progressive PMS they want to be the best in the
37:40
industry and so whatever they have the next big thing they announced I’m sure it was already in the works before the
37:45
track roadmap and the acquisition of lightmaker just because they want to be the best in the industry
37:52
so they’re good yeah so um
37:57
some of inhabit iq’s previous Acquisitions kind of you know I scratched my head like they’re all very similar you know
38:05
and bringing on Olympian you know it was just like that was the one that was like
38:11
of all the m a that’s the one that makes a ton of sense it changes everything yeah
38:18
congratulations to Adrian and um you know and Sean and everyone on the team there one thing I’ll say about the
38:24
technology and short-term rentals going back to a previous point a lot of people enter the space
38:32
for passive income now short-term rental business is not passive but because they enter thinking that this is a passive
38:39
income Endeavor they latch on to the next new Shiny Bright technology thing that promises to make it more passive
38:48
so far you know it technology simplifies and complicates right and right now
38:54
we’re struggling with that that dichotomy of simplifying one thing and on that by simplifying that a whole slew
39:01
of other kind of worms schedule uh get opened up when you take the depth of a Breezeway the depth of an Enzo you take
39:08
the depth of an Enzo and deck you you marry that with the depth of a
39:16
super strong PMS there you’re going to reduce the fragmentation you’re going to reduce the headaches you’re going to
39:21
reduce the problem you’re solving the fragmentation problem right there that’s fair I would say at the end of
39:27
the day it does involve a full synchronization of your systems with your property management system and vice
39:34
versa with your OTAs at the end of the day it’s a data play for all of us as tech companies who is closest to the end
39:40
user data and I I’ve spoken about this at a uh at one of the conferences the book direct show uh around how Google
39:47
had wiped out Yelp why because they had aggregated and Consolidated all of the review data on Google and then they
39:54
pulled the plug they said well why do we need to get Yelp reviews when we have Google reviews now thank you for all
39:59
this preliminary data uh on rating all the Google Places uh because Yelp was
40:05
using Google Places to to find out the restaurants and and so on and then pretty much wiped it so at the end of the day it’s where is the information
40:10
coming from the reservation starts at The Meta search the Google the Yahoo the well I don’t know if Yahoo’s still up
40:16
and running the the beings of the world goes into the OTA they make the reservation where your direct booking
40:22
website moves into your channel manager your PMS and then your different systems whether it’s you know you’re cleaning in
40:28
operations your guest experience and so on so as a third-party service we are the furthest away from that that
40:34
information and we rely on the property management system to be um you know available with that
40:41
information so that we can operate the way we want to so there is a massive data play
40:47
um and I would say it’s a chess game if anything uh with different companies on how do we navigate this complex uh data
40:54
flow in your business so you know just like property managers are facing the fragmentation from an operations
40:59
perspective we’re facing the fragmentation from a data perspective and where do we get all this information when we’re missing it from our key
41:06
Partners um on that note uh I did want to touch up a tiny bit more on the White Label
41:11
format because I think in my opinion the white label piece is what is
41:17
increasing Innovation and to give you an example um about a year a year and a half ago we decided to partner with one of the big
41:23
lock companies in the industry and they kind of turned us down saying you know oh well we’re we’re here and your guys
41:30
are going to be right here so I don’t know so it kind of frustrated me and I decided you know what I need to find a solution we don’t have the resources to
41:36
go out and integrate with every single Smart Lock on the market um because we’ve seen companies like you know operator and remote lock do this
41:43
for 10 plus years or maybe not 10 I think it’s six or seven uh and are so focused on maintaining this and making
41:49
sure it works and we landed on a gem and I know John you’re you’re very familiar with this gen uh called scene and it’s
41:56
basically just the API of smart locks so it neutralized all of the Smart Lock
42:02
focused companies operator remote lock giving access to both pms’s guest experience platform and any other
42:08
platform the ability to have any smart locks uh if not more than the Smart Lock
42:14
focused companies in a matter of a couple days like a Sprint two weeks of
42:19
engineering work and that’s done and when I saw the impact that this had on on our growth and obviously our partners
42:25
growth and so on on I made me realize that if we can focus more on this integration with other partners in this
42:31
two-way sync and also a white label format Auto host superhog party
42:37
um all these different tools to effectively centralize the operations while still using best-in-class systems
42:43
uh because Terry I do have to disagree a bit I think the One-Stop shop I build it all is a very aggressive roadmap not
42:51
pointing to to track because they have proven themselves to to be one of the best pms’s out there but in general for
42:58
most Property Management Systems it is a very very aggressive statement to make uh and I’ve yet to see it uh in the
43:05
space so what are your thoughts on on this I don’t think you’re understanding what
43:11
I’m saying is you’re going to take the best pms’s they’re not going to be the all-in-one solution they’re going to need the Dax they’re going to need the
43:17
so put put them to so you take the strongest they cannot they cannot go It
43:22
Alone they can’t they need the other Technologies but we’re gonna you’re gonna take the best Technologies in the business and you’re going to integrate
43:29
those two technology they’re going to take the PMS which is the most important part of tech in our industry and then you’re going to take the other
43:34
Technologies the strongest Technologies you can merge them together and the big winners are going to be the ones that do
43:41
more on one platform you do more on Enzo you do more on DAC you do more in your PMS is what yeah is what I’m saying so
43:48
it’s reducing the number of tools but it’s not necessarily one system that does it all it’s just finding the best
43:54
in class for the key verticals and having one system that does that best vertical is that correct the deepest
44:01
deepest platforms which are right now which right now are Breezeway deck and
44:08
Enzo excluding a PMs and then you got you pick whoever you think is the best PMS but in our industry but I think one
44:14
thing our industry should be prepared for Francois I think you should be prepared for as much as overpopulated as
44:20
the PMS sector is the next overcrowded and
44:26
I guess for sure you guys are going to get you guys are going to see competition that you’ve never dreamed of
44:32
seeing here and it’s going to be good it’s going to be good technology it’s going to be deep technology and you guys
44:38
I I include you in that you guys are going to be the winners in this I appreciate it um what are the verticals
44:44
guys that you think are are sort of to manage a business like let’s say we have someone in the audience here that’s
44:50
listening that has you know 10 20 properties and wants to grow to 100 200 in the next uh year or plus what are the
44:58
different verticals that they should start thinking about uh and how to you know best have have the best
45:03
Technologies and so we briefly talked about Guest experience we talked about operations and maintenance what are the
45:08
other buckets that you guys would uh would categorize John if you want to start us off on that because I know you’ve got quite a few buckets on your
45:14
engine yeah I mean there’s there’s like the you know day-to-day
45:20
operation as well as internal you know team operations and things of that
45:25
nature I’m trying to pull up uh a map that wheelhouse put together and
45:31
unfortunately I can’t seem to pull it up right now but you know there there’s
45:38
there’s Access Control right um there is guest communication there’s a channel
45:45
distribution um Revenue management I mean right now what I’m seeing popping
45:54
up these days is Inventory management right so all the like Minoans the sojos
46:00
the the inhavens of the world now they’re trying to tackle how do we
46:05
streamline inventory so our system tells you when you need to order these
46:10
supplies rather than you having to track it right like every problem there is a new a new vertical appears in our
46:19
industry so I mean the list is Longs that’s why you have the ajl map uh you
46:26
know that’s that’s that still is a fraction of all the verticals that we have in our industry right uh we I think
46:32
another one that’s exciting another vertical are the integrators now right the companies that are integrating
46:39
they’re not providing any other service other than integrating the different Technologies so yeah it’s the list is
46:47
long but for the audience what I would say is outside of you know your PMs and
46:53
things that help you just run run that the operation of the business
47:00
the key things like how do you communicate internally are you using WhatsApp to communicate with your team
47:06
because that’s going to fall apart really fast if you’re communicating with a you know a remote team with WhatsApp
47:12
right so are you using slack that is part of the tech stack as well to make
47:17
sure your phone system can you know to kind of a chain so that it all works so
47:23
there it goes really deep because this really is a complex business with lots of moving parts
47:29
but most of those moving parts are predictable and that’s where technology can come in because it is predictable
47:35
and you can solve it how about yourself Terry what are your your big buckets and we are going to answer the questions
47:40
shortly thereafter I’ve seen two three minutes guys because I see some really really interesting questions here
47:46
um what are your thoughts in terms of the big buckets and I know you’ve mentioned the names of the companies but in terms of just the arching uh groups
47:52
you know again operations and so on what are your thoughts um as complicated as technology is in our
47:59
industry if you can break it down into the 10 core components of a tech stack which are the PMS the website booking
48:04
engine distribution operations Revenue management CRM guest Communications guest experience home automation digital
48:11
marketing but even on those 10 I think the best way to simplify it right now is
48:16
get the best PMS you can afford get the best website that you can afford and you have to see the guest experience
48:24
the guest Communications platforms you have to align yourself with them they’re the future of our industry that’s fair
48:29
and the fragmentation and guest experience is absolutely the next wave I mean we’re seeing it from movement from
48:35
hotels companies that you know are coming into this space and trying to adapt to Vacation Rentals with their
48:41
breadth of technology or vice versa companies in our space trying to move into hotels to bring in guest experience
48:46
and we’re also seeing pms’s talk about it even if they may not have certain functionalities they realize the
48:52
opportunity for sure um I agree with that um so for the last question then we’re gonna open it up for
48:57
for Q a I guess Terry do you want to kind of illustrate your prediction with regards to you’d mentioned B12 and touching a bit more on that uh after and
49:04
what it meant for the industry so kind of what what do we expect in the next year two years five years from this
49:10
space as we see pms’s consolidate to specific winners we’re seeing
49:15
fragmentation and guest experience happen right now but also starting to consolidate towards clear winners what’s
49:22
next what are we going to see from uh this fragmentation and how is it going to impact people’s businesses what we’re
49:28
going to see is an answer to the fragmentation and we already have it it’s right in front of our eyes here right now and as far as sure there’s
49:35
going to be more technology come in good I mean good really good technology but I think it’s going to slow a lot
49:41
because we pretty in the lot just look at what we’ve done in the last four years from a technology standpoint and
49:46
then you know you put that AGL um graph up there and it has like 400 different companies up there you could you could
49:54
take 800 companies and put that graph up there and say you got four years to beat
49:59
that and never do it that’s how far we’ve come in four years um but to predict what’s going to happen
50:04
in the future I’ve already said it’s going to be the strongest PMS is they’re going to survive the weaker ones they’re going to be in big trouble and it’s
50:10
going to be doing more on one platform it’s going to be doing more in your PMs and it’s going to be doing more in your
50:16
other outside platforms like Enzo and like Doc and commute and putting those two together
50:22
and wait there’s no question that logging into 37 different different
50:27
dashboards is not the future of our industry yeah I would I would hope so as well and I think the vacation rental
50:33
industry is professionalizing we’re seeing more and more operators grow in size
50:38
um I think the we’re seeing some signals in my opinion with the recent topics of Airbnb bust as they call it or airbnbust
50:46
of you know if you’re in this to make quick money fast you’re going to be on the on the um you’re gonna be the first
50:52
ones out of the of the space in my opinion if you’re not thinking about how you’re professionalizing your business uh because this industry is becoming
50:59
just as professional as hotels uh if not more with its use of Technology uh John
51:04
how about yourself what are your thoughts in terms of the future and the predictions with that fragmentation I
51:10
agree I think um there’s there’s only so much Innovation you know
51:15
at a certain point and I think as we’re professionalized um
51:21
I believe within the next you know one or two years there is going to be a like
51:26
formal short-term rental school education not not the gurus but like you
51:32
know like you have a hotel school I think those types of things are uh kind
51:37
of happening so people start operating similarly and so you don’t need the you
51:42
know all this entrepreneurial uh efforts so I think it’s going to consolidate
51:48
anti-fragment somewhat the this is not so much on the
51:54
fragmentation side but one one thing that I S I am seeing already is
51:59
people are now trying to use technology to personalize uh their guest experience
52:06
and everything chat gbt and everything I actually think that’s going to fall flat at a certain point like literally trying
52:13
to get themselves out of the hospitality of a Hospitality business right uh but what I do see
52:21
coming and I know Francois you probably disagree because I know you use a lot of uh you know Ai and things
52:28
um but what I do think is going to be happening is things like machine learning that helps us understand our
52:35
guests our data our you know like understanding that and fragmenting
52:40
or segmenting um you know who we’re targeting I think
52:46
that kind of access to data and information and consumable ways not this huge data stream that everyone
52:52
subscribes to I think that’s going to help professionalize our industry as well I agree in part I’m gonna say with
53:00
what you say uh with regards to chat TV we’ll have to have a separate webinar on this subject
53:05
um I’ll be speaking about this at the tour Summit but I have quite a few thoughts on that um to open it up for the the panel just
53:12
because I’m seeing it Francois can I make one last Point here I don’t think that you’re I don’t think you are even
53:18
looking at it properly at your platform at the other platforms what what you are doing what
53:25
Breezeway is doing what is Docker doing you know you guys are building PMS light platforms you you guys are you
53:32
guys are actually PMS like platforms and that’s why I say that’s you are it’s true I mean I have
53:38
to be very cautious of what I say is we’re not looking to be a PMS obviously because we partnered with EMS but I can certainly see this yeah I’m not saying
53:45
that you you are our PMS light platform for sure
53:50
sure yeah no it’s it’s a fair assessment of it I think I’m seeing because we’re
53:56
we’re trying to split this vertical from the overarching One-Stop shop I see it as its own but you’re right if we’re
54:03
going with the assumption that the PMS is supposed to be the centralized management of your entire business not
54:08
just your listings uh then you’re right we are in a way a light version of a PMS
54:13
focused on one vertical um I agree with that now when you put those two together it’s an unbeatable
54:19
that’s true that’s true um but on that note with regards to the questions that we’re getting and I’m
54:24
seeing one in particular which I think I’ve addressed quite a few times on sales calls and in general which is
54:30
around cost so there is a cost factor to Bringing on all of these different tools and it starts to get expensive you know
54:37
you start with the PMS it’s 40 bucks per listing per month and then you add on a guest experience platform it’s another 10 and then this and then that next
54:43
thing you know you’re spending 100 a month per listing how do you justify the cost for technology
54:49
I’ll start very simply um an example is this right so uh I very
54:56
early on I I brought on uh price Labs or wheelhouse I tested them both
55:03
and the justification is if I had a human being doing it it probably would it will cost me more
55:10
I’ll get poor results right so I kind of do a cost balance you know of
55:19
everything and it’s like if I don’t have a PMS how much time am I going to be spending on a on a
55:24
spreadsheet you know doing this now there are some you know some pms’s where it’s like what like a ten thousand
55:31
dollar onboarding fee and then you know however much per month clearly that’s cost prohibitive to all
55:37
but the largest operators and they do that essentially two you know to read
55:43
out people that don’t fit their ideal customer type um but yeah like
55:49
if it’s let’s say you’re spending 100 a month right so that’s three thousand dollars uh
55:55
um sorry 100 a month so that’s you know three thousand three four thousand dollars a year
56:01
if that can replace a human the salary for me it’s like and it gets a lot of the work done then it justifies it
56:08
because otherwise I would have to go out and hire someone to do do a lot of that work it’s a very high simplistic level
56:14
of thinking but um if you think of it that way I think a lot of the technology it makes a lot of
56:21
sense to spend that kind of money and how about yourself Terry how do you assess the cost factor of bringing on
56:27
these tools at some point our industry is going to have to have a very serious conversation about the cost of our Tech stack um
56:34
because a lot of it a lot but you can’t make sense of at all because it makes no sense at all I’ll
56:39
give it a couple examples you’re paying your PMS one percent for channel integration fee you’re paying a pricing
56:46
to a one percent to do your pricing for you you have I’ll use an example of your
56:51
PMS has a direct integration with Airbnb BRBO booking.com Google you know and
56:58
then what do you do you make a monthly donation to a channel manager you know it just this stuff is making no sense
57:03
you know at some time we’re gonna have to have a serious conversation about what why people are doing what they’re
57:09
doing because it makes no sense yeah that’s fair I mean I think it goes back to what John is saying about saving time
57:14
making more money at the end of the day it’s on each system to justify the the return on investment uh on our case
57:21
we’ve shifted quite a bit from the Saving Time discussion to more of them making more money uh and I think that
57:27
you can see that number clearly with upsells and and other uh pieces another question that I’m seeing as well is
57:32
around chat GPT and being cautious and concerned with this um I couldn’t agree more with with Gavin
57:38
here on this one I think it’s gonna tragic BT’s gonna change the way we’ve been using a Transformer model for for
57:43
quite some time not chat gbt4 or any of the latest models yet um but I think when we get back to that
57:49
that topic of the ten thousand dollar onboarding fee um why do you need a human to help you
57:54
on board a system should be able to onboard itself and I think systems like chatgpt isn’t about answering your
58:01
guests messages necessarily but providing the right insights on the data that’s out there of your PMS whether
58:07
it’s getting you onboarded quicker whether it’s having almost like a personal assistant to do them the more
58:12
manual and tedious tasks um and eliminating certain frictions uh along the guest Journey potentially as
58:19
well more to be discussed on that in April May uh on our end and uh and the last
58:25
bit I’m seeing as well is don’t forget us is only one country chaps fragmentation is fragmented
58:30
geographically also something I could not iterate more um being French from France not from
58:37
Quebec um I see a lot of differences both culturally and business-wise between a
58:43
French property manager and a North American Property Manager um whether it’s language barriers
58:49
whether it’s the operational complexity in Spain you have to send IDs to the local authorities
58:54
but in Italy you have to send it to every single Department whereas in the U.S you don’t need to so all of this
59:00
differences means if you want to grow a business globally fragmentation in a way
59:06
will help you solve things while making it difficult for you to manage the business because you’ll have the right
59:12
tools to deal with the different geographical um issues you’re facing uh so I’m
59:17
intrigued to see how the industry progresses to also consolidating this not just from a tech perspective but
59:23
geographical perspectives you guys see a lot of businesses growing internationally like this Terry John
59:28
have you seen businesses that are able to have the perfect Tech stack with properties around the world I see a lot
59:34
of European company companies and you know they’ve been at it much longer so most of them have their own
59:41
proprietary and you know internal Tech stack that they’ve built um
59:47
and it works right it works for them um although then the technology is very old right like it’s not taking advantage
59:53
of a lot of the um your things they’re even European Revenue Management Systems versus U.S
1:00:00
based Revenue Management Systems um and I think they’re you know over a
1:00:07
thousand pms’s and I think 500 are in Europe and you know 500 are very simplistic 500 are in the US so yes it
1:00:15
is fragmented what I am seeing though are European big players in Europe moving into us and vice versa uh us you
1:00:25
know big technology players moving into the European market we’ll see how that goes because like you
1:00:30
said like the regulations and all that stuff are very different so 100 on that note we are going to wrap
1:00:38
things up uh it was a pleasure speaking with with both of you I know we’re out of time here I think the conversation is
1:00:44
is an even longer sit down when it comes to fragmentation so we’ll have to organize some sort of uh beer night or
1:00:50
drink somewhere at the next conference so we can all chat about uh about fragmentation
1:00:55
um to wrap things up how can how can we find you John and how can we find you Terry let’s start with you John
1:01:01
um so I am fairly active on LinkedIn and so if you search either Tech tape or
1:01:06
John odd on LinkedIn you’ll find me uh and then email or website email is john.on a-n at gettechtape.com and uh
1:01:15
I’m fairly responsive 100 and how about yourself Terry LinkedIn is probably the easiest way and
1:01:22
then if you go to Vacation rentalsoftwareguy.com you can contact me through there as well I love it I I bet
1:01:28
we sparked a lot of uh controversy here in this uh in this chat so I’m excited to see what the comment sections guys go
1:01:34
ahead and blow up the comment sections if you disagree I think this is overall a conversation to continue to have as
1:01:40
Tech providers and as property managers as we both look to solve the problems of
1:01:45
uh the vacation rental segment the hospitality segment if you will on that note thank you so much Terry and John
1:01:51
for joining and uh hoping to see you guys in person at the next conference or in your case Terry here in Toronto all
1:01:58
right awesome yes I look forward to it thank you guys thank you thank you so much